New Mean Cells

These were the days my friend…..

This week we acknowledge a sea change and weather change in the land of Electric Vehicles. It will take some years yet to play out, but the helm has swung hard over and we are no longer destined to fall off the edge of the earth into that dreaded zone “where lie beasties”.

Over the past two years I have watched in some discomfort as my predictions that the early introductions of Nissan Leaf’s and Chevy VOlts and the parade of unobtainium “announcements” would lead to naught. Largely because it led to naught. These people designed the wrong car, for the wrong customers, and at the wrong time. The parade of bankruptcies and failures was painful to watch, and more painful to be the screwtape at the party predicting them. It was a painful process but one that had to be gone through – I suppose. Actually it was mostly unnecessary, which made it even more irritating.

In the past few months, things have changed and right smartly. I would have to say the lion’s share of the credit goes to Tesla Motor Company. The successful introduction of their Model S not only validated my position that upscale luxury cars aimed at early adopters was the way to go, it has completely turned around the tone and attitude of the other players. GM’s Akers is lashing at GM with a whip and deriding the GM crowd who in turn derided Tesla as a bunch of laptop batteries. He knows what disruptive technology and just EXACTLY what it does to HUGE vested interests if they don’t get with the game.

BMW this week has rolled out their BMW i3 with much confidence. VW has promoted the head of their electric projects to a mainline management position.

But it wasn’t all Tesla. A lot of it was YOU. I’ve been chanting this for years and nobody really believes it. The distance from me or you to anyone in the United States is about 3 hops. While the media moronically repeated the objections to the electric car over and over, the populace was not sold one way or the other. They DO actually distrust our mainline media now at a deep, universal, and resentful level. But at the same time, nobody wants to be the guinea pig, particularly if it is expensive.

I first picked up on this at THE GREAT RACE which Cape Girardeau hosted and we at EVTV sponsored. Yesterday we got a nice plaque about that and a photo. But Cape Girardeau was actually named BEST HOST CITY on this year’s race and a number of entrants noted, more like “best ever”. This from the work of Danny Essner.

In any event, the questions were all suddenly very different from the masses of the unwashed. In fact, instead of questions, I got a lot of “you know what I saw” one upmanship. And it was all about a car they had seen at a St. Louis car show that this guy did in his garage. Or a car at an Earth Day in California. Or a car in Las Vegas at another event. “And he said…” blah blah blah. “And it would go…” blah blah blah. And then “is that right???” Will they really do that?

And a surprising level of details sought on what type of motor, battery, controller, etc. The skepticism was gone. The crap about the great vaunted “sound of the V-8″ was entirely missing from the conversation. The discussions of range were on how to get more of it, instead of what it was. Everything about the tone, nature, and specifics of our interaction with a huge number of people who attended the event was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. And it’s not like we’ve not done this before. And Tesla rarely came up or was mentioned. I don’t think its considered a viable option for most of these people Or all of these people.

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So I think it was a strong interaction. YOUR work building and showing your cars, and Tesla’s taking all the smug Tesla detractors with all their knowledgeable and sage criticisms, out back for a HUGE public spanking.
The stock is at $136 this morning, making my $140 call on it some months back look pretty damn good if I do say so myself.

So the body politic GETS the part about no gasoline. They always did. They just didn’t really think it could be real. We’ve been hampered by an ironic “too good to be true” effect. They want it so bad they are afraid to believe in it. And the media and vested interests, which they were skeptical of anyway, had TEsla literally make FOOLS of them in public.

So the table is set. And the rest of the me toos in automobile land have caught the change of wind and are tacking FURIOUSLY for position. By this time next month, we will be in the Oklahoma Land Grab phase with a huge rush to get into position by investors, venture capital, and of course all the carmakers.

In fact, each and ever one of the carmakers have carefully already laid the ground work to claim they were the “first” at some aspect of it. Porsche’s claim, by virtue of their founders failed exercises with electric wheel motors in 1904 has to take the cake. But you’ll see all cementing those claims. Carlos Ghosn will have “known all along” and Bob Lutz can be expected to make a dozen cameo appearances cigar akimbo and gravelly voice going in all directions. Ironically, sales of Leafs and Volts have very abruptly LUNGED upward on the halo effect of TESLA. Will wonders never cease?

Brian and I drove up Wednesday to pick up my $107,000 Tesla Model S. Paid for entirely and several times over actually by some fortuitous June $47 call optionss on their stock I picked up in the early days of February.
And I’ve been day trading in the base stock since selling those. I know a number of our viewers have applied for positions with Tesla and want to go to work for them. I think that would be a good move. As for myself, I want TESLA to go to work for ME and they are doing pretty well at it at the moment.

mytesla

I hope to do a detailed analysis of the car after EVCCON but just a quick take. After all that, it’s a car. It IS a cool car. It will fill every early adopters dream. They will be noticed. They will be considered once again out ahead of the crowd and cool. It will do 275 miles on a single charge. We drove it 148 miles from St. Louis service center to my garage. No hiccups. Not a peep. Quality throughout. EXCELLENT SALES EXECUTION. It is the EASIEST car to purchase you will every buy – as long as you have $107,000 not earmarked for anything important. The feel and driving experience are notable and absolutely quality.

The doors and seats are completely out of alignment for a normal car and it makes it terribly difficult to get in and out of. If you are going down the road at 70 mph, and roll the front windows UP and leave the back windows down, the entire car hits some resonance and vibrates and throbs so alarmingly I’m certain it would have shook the car to pieces if I had not gotten the rear windows up quickly. You should try it just to feel it but don’t do it much if you want to keep the car.

And in the end, it’s just a car. A nice four door sedan. That doesn’t use gasoline at all. It’s so perfect, it kind of leaves you underwhelmed. We’re accustomed to glitches and oddities in all our builds reminding us of the joy of driving electric. The Tesla doesn’t have any. You quickly forget you are driving an electric at all. It’s quiet but all modern four door sedans are quiet. It’s quick, but all modern four door luxury sedans are quick. And it’s a sedan.

I like it. I’m going to say I love it. But in reality, it is destined to be the wife’s daily driver. I do indeed prefer the Escalade in most respects, except the Escalade won’t play my iPhone music. And I”m sure I can rectify that easily enough with some add-on or another.

Oh and it turns out it will only hold THREE remote control signatures after all. No need for that. There is plenty of computer to hold a hundred. But they provide three slots as it turns out and that’s all you get. Most of the interior amenities are quite ordinary, though the instrument cluster and 17 inch screen are quite the tits.

I do remain fascinated with the EVSE charge station, and Tesla’s plug. Would somebody please locate the source of these so we can have our own version of this? It’s just too well done.

The future. It is a runout of the standard adoption curve and the usual chicken and egg gig but reflecting the fact that the automotive ecosystem is huge and complex, this too will be a little more complicated than usual. But not really harder as there are analogs already and it will be readily apparent how it all works out. I’ll lay it out for you and your immediate reaction will be that you knew that already. You didn’t. But it will flash through you so fast and so obvious that you will think you did.

Currently the focus is on batteries to improve the range of the vehicle. Despite everything I’ve said on this topic, and that this has been confirmed over and over. BMW has had 1000 participants and 12.5 million miles in their MiniE and ActiveE experiments. About 30 miles a day is what you need in a car. But a huge effort is going into batteries and vehicle range.

By the time they get all the cars up to 300 or 350 real miles, you wont’ need them. But by then, the batteries to do 100 miles will be relatively small and inexpensive. But along the way the fast charging infrastructure, which as I’ve said many times really isn’t that hard, will evolve to cater to the hoards of new e-car drivers. By the time the 300 mile car arrives, you’ll be able to charge almost anywhere in 15 minutes. And so the migration to the ultimate consumer and mass adoption will be in short range cars kind of like cell phones with prepaid minutes so popular among those too impoverished to even have a checking account, much less qualify for a phone contract. And they’ll still be useful because you can charge them anywhere.

Tesla’s SuperCharger network can lay this out pretty well. They are not moving as fast as I would like to see. It kind of belies a lack of confidence. If they would adopt the convenience store model, this would be essentially risk free and they could simply deploy it. It would be paying for itself before construction of the whole network was even complete.

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mitsubishi announced this week, by way of example, a mutual project centered on a brazillian dollar subsidy from the Japanese government. The Japanese are simply the best on earth at cooperating. And they have government and these five huge car manufacturers all in bed and on the committee to put out 8000 normal charge stations and 4000 fast charge stations in the next two years. This is in a country roughly the size of California with a population of 130 million. It will be a PAY system with ALL of those chargers on one credit card.

It has become a national passion here that no two Americans would be caught dead agreeing on what time it was within a six foot radius of where they were standing. So none of that’s happening here of course. We will revel in the luxury of THREE competing standards, no cooperation, and a government marked by lack of leadership as its one most historically notable feature. A judiciary that legislates by decree. A Presidency that legislates by picking which laws to enforce, which ones to ignore, and which ones to just make up. And a legislature that doesn’t legislate at all because they can’t agree on anything. Huge corporations equally leaderless. And Elon Musk.

But it will all get sorted out. Imagine how much easier it would be if Tesla, General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler, and the U.S. government, each pitched in $200 million and demanded the utility companies as a group to pony up and equal $1.2 billion amount to form the GO WEE STOP Corporation to build solar electric fast charge stations across the land. As I’ve pointed out, we only need 1150 of them to blanket the country’s Interstate highway system with one every 50 miles.

So it’s early adopter upscale luxury car, better batteries, more range, lower priced cars, more infrastructure, less range, low priced cars. Kind of an odd winding map to mass adoption through batteries and infrastructure. Eventually the cost of the batteries will come down because their energy density will go up, not because you actually paid less per cell. You just won’t need 7000 cells anymore.

Enough about God, the Universe, and the meaning of life. Let’s talk about me. And maybe a little bit about you. The immediate remains the batteries. And proving once again that it is much preferable to be lucky than to be good, I ordered six 100AH LiFePo4 cells with 20C output and received instead 10 50Ah NMC cells with 20C output I didn’t even know were available.

NMC stands for Nickle Mangase Cobalt. The actual chemistry is LiNiMnCoO2 and the magic sauce is of course the ratio of Nickel to Manganese to Cobalt. Cobalt is heroically expensive, a rare earth element and quite toxic and thermally unstable with the highest energy and power density. Manganese is dirt cheap, a little bit more thermally stable, a little less on energy and power density, and unfortunately much shorter cycle life. Nickle has been with us since the Edison cell 100 years ago. It is of course a lithium ion battery.

Unlike the LiSO2 cells or lithium air cells out on the horizon, or the silicon anode cells also out of the horizon, the NMC uses the same equipment, the same process, the same graphite anode exactly, and so forth to any of the three extant lithium ion cells:

LiCoO2
LiMnO4
LiFePO4

There are actually TWO incrementally improved chemistries which I call kitchen sink cathodes as they have thrown everything but the kitchen sink into the mix and I’m not entirely clear the sink isn’t in there somewhere as part of someones secret sauce.

LiNiMnCoO2 and LiNiCoAlO2. The first is short named NMC and the second NCA. The NCA cell is most probably the new Panasonic cell in the Tesla Model S. The NMC cell is the one Nissan is rumored to be working furiously on for their 2015 Nissan Leaf.

Consider this:

LiFePo4 150-160/370
LiNiMnCoO2 200/370
LiNiCoAlO2 180/370

Let’s look at what these numbers represent. In the case of the LiFePO4 cells, the 150-160 is the number of milliamphours of energy can be intercalated or hosted per gram of cathode material. The reason tis one is stated as a range is that technically speaking LiFePO4 cannot conduct electricity. We need it to to work as a battery. And so we typically mix in about 5% graphite. The range varies. So do trace secret sauce elements like Yttrium and so forth.

The graphite anode, on the other hand, can produce 370 mAh/g. So how does that work? Well, assuming 160 for our cathode, we have about 370/160=2.31 times as much cathode material as anode material in order to make it work. So for 2.31 grams of cathode and 1 gram of anode, we get a 370mAh battery. So a 50Ah cell would require 135.13 grams of graphite and 312.16 grams of LiFePO4. That’s a little over 447 grams of active material total in the cell. Less than half a kilogram in about a two kilogram cell. The rest of the cell is aluminum foil, copper foil, plastic case, and terminal hardware.

In the case of LiNiMnCoO2, our cathode material can host 200 mAh/g. And so for a 50Ah cell, we need 135 grams of graphite again, but only 250 grams of LiNiMnCoO2 for a total of 385 grams of active material. So we are 65 grams lighter – at least.

And the at least should be in quotes. You see the actual POWER out of a cell is a function of two things – Voltage and Current. And that goes to the electropotential of the anode and cathode. Our LiFePO4 cells from fully charged to fully discharged will average about 3.2volts and so we could say that the 50Ah cell contained 3.2v x 50Ah = 160 Watt Hours or Wh. The electropotentials of the NMC cell render an AVERAGE voltage of more like 3.6v. So 3.6v X 50Ah = 180 Wh. So in addition to being 14.5% lighter in active material, we are also 12.5% higher in stored energy.

Pretty good work if you can get it.

newcellchargeVolts

The graph above shows the charge curve of the NMC cell to 4.2volts. The graph below shows the charge curve for a CA180FI cell. You will notice a dramatic difference that is going to change how we deal with cells at a very basic level. The CA series is mostly flat, with a sudden upturn to nearly vertical voltage climb at the end of charge. The NMC cell is essentially linear from bottom to top.

CAchargecurve

This also carries over to the discharge side. But on the very END of discharge we DO have the vertical slope. If you fully charge the NMC cell, and let it sit overnight, it will settle to just about 4.00v. When you discharge it, it immediately drops to 3.9, but from there it is pretty linear down to 3.3v. At that point it turns south quickly. But the average from 3.9 to 3.3 is clearly 3.6v.

LiNiMnCoO2dischargecurveVolts

It will undoubtedly cost us a cell, but I am going to find it. I think if we charge high enough on the other end, we will find the same vertical face. But we may be at a voltage beyond what the organic solvents and lithiumhexaflourphosphate electrolytes can stand before they start breaking down. The manufacturer recommends charging to 4.1v.

We did a quick test of fast charge. No change in the charge curve. 19 minutes we did 47.5 Ah for a 95% recharge at 3C. Anode temperature rose from 83F to 110F. Not a problem, but much higher than the LiFePo4 cells. You see the advantages you derive from the lower 3.2v average voltage is longer life and more thermal stability.

LiNiMnCoO2fastcharge Volts

Alibaba has always listed the LiFePO4 and LiMnO4 material available in drums. In recent weeks this LiNiMnCoO2 NMC material has appeared as well. I think Chinese battery manufacture will move away from LiFePo4 and towards the NMC chemistry in months to come.

And that pretty much comprises this year’s incremental advance in battery chemistry. These cells are rated at 15C continous discharge and 20C for up to 10 seconds. We’ll probably try to test that at some point to find what the voltage sag is for example during a 20C discharge. But I expect it will be quite good.

We are 35 days out from receiving a large block of these cells, which are a little hard to get at the moment. The bad news is they are nearly twice as expensive as our beloved CA series cells so I don’t expect them to take over immediately. The world is apparently getting smaller. The crucial patents on the secret sauce mix for NMC belongs to 3M and they have already licensed it to Chinese firms who appear willing to pay the price and be part of the adult world economy. Not necessarily good for you and I.

As I warned earlier, the cell price is not going down. But how many and how large the cells you need probably will. In effect, cheaper better batteries make better electric cars.

I’m excited.

Jack

41 thoughts on “New Mean Cells”

  1. With the linear rise and drop like you see in your graph do you suppose you could better tell SOC just with voltage. Looks a lot like lead and a simple SOC meter works good with them. I’d like to get a couple when they come in for testing.

    1. lol Pete,
      Absolutely!
      Cycle life, voltage sag, all mapped against various temperatures. These neat and tidy cells will get even warmer strapped up against one another, will not lose heat so readily.
      A 3D mapped pack could report SOC at any temp/load/Voltage with these things. – I guess!
      .
      I do imagine these cells used on smaller vehicles. Entirely within the remit for most home builders, specials, custom, track and sports.

  2. Jack – I agree on the trends – I’m just waiting for Jeremy Clarkson to stand up and say that he always was keen on electric cars, really. It reminds me of what Sir Winston Churchill said after the battle of El Alamein “This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

  3. Jim Holifield

    Jack – it is exciting for you to finally get the Tesla Model-S. You stated that you get 320Whrs/mile, which translates to 3.125 miles/Kw, but that was highway mileage wasn’t it? I’d be interested to hear what your mpk is with your normal around town driving, which I would think would increase to at least 3.5mpk or more. And the idea of that much increase in density for a Lithium battery is very interesting.

  4. Nissan claim the average for their car (derived from the telematics) is 212wh/mile; about 4.7 miles per KWH. The car weighs 3350 lbs. This number is almost certainly from the battery to the motor. That *could* validate the 100lb = (wh/mile) from plug to road for a car? My EVSE has not been given a login for it yet but when I do, will know the real consumption.

    1. Andyj – I drive a Nissan Leaf and get 4.6 miles per Kwh or 217.39wh/mile driving an average of 50mph to work and back; a 56 mile round trip per day.

      1. Jim, there’s a good few of us Leafers here. Except that John Hardy, our black sheep. 😉
        I don’t do regular distances but this weekend took the missus on her first camping weekend to darkest Yorkshire, (where her cell does not work), purely to allay her fears of travelling larger distances.
        Aren’t electric cars great!

        1. Andy – I drove the Leaf and quite liked it but my 17 year old said it looked like a lunch box. Exit Leaf stage left, tail between legs. The Ampera is an evolutionary dead end but a superbly executed one. I do most of my miles on the battery and unlike the (rinse, spit) Toyota Prius the electric motor provides most of the drive most of the time so you get the instant off the line torque regardless of power source. I had to drive a Ford diesel yesterday. So last season. I drove it 100 miles and put in more fuel than the Ampera gets in a month. I get data from my charging system too – currently showing about a megawatt-hour to date. About a tonne of CO2 saved (if that matters, which I doubt)

          1. Jim Holifield

            John Hardy – did your 17 year old look at the rear end? We do all have different tastes to rear ends though.

        2. Jim Holifield

          Yea,sure, you betcha they are Andyj. I consider sailing the next best thing to sex without the big O, and I consider Electric cars, a close 2nd to sailing!

          1. Haha, good comments.
            Jim,
            you like the hand of God feeling..? I paraglide but her hand can sometimes be a little too rough at times.
            John,
            If possible. Would love to see you in late August for a couple of hours. I’ll be topping up in Wolverhampton as I’m passing through to Marys 40th, a mile South of Church Stretton. 🙂
            .
            I agree with the kids; can never get my head around Nissans design mindset. The Leafs bum end reminds me of the lady with the worlds biggest hips and the headlights from the front remind me of a woman who’s bondage needs were squeezing her nips into the air. Or Kermit. It certainly lacks the sexy lines to make our kids feel the big “O”.
            .
            So far three “young people” have independently quoted my car as “spooky” – all at different times. The last said it as I quietly climbed up the very steep campsite road where normal cars are straining. I popped my head out the window and quietly said “I’m an electric car, hear me roar!”. >:)
            .
            A car refuelling at a quiet campsite, (£2.50 for a weekends supply) being driven all over the place to see the sights for two days, effectively free, the preponderance of many who love “being green” turned their heads, impressed people with carefree range – raised eyebrows, it was noticed; brought smiles and started a good few conversations.
            Hey, one person at a time. 😉
            .
            For the guys in the US. We have your mandatory noise button but the low speed/reversing buzzers are disconnected, by law!

  5. I have noticed one interesting thing lately.

    Before the Model S was a big hit. The Ignorant masses would swoop into every article and trash the Model S and the Tesla fans would try to defend it….

    Now that the BMW i3 is out and Tesla is a hit and the Tesla fans now swoop in (with the ignorant masses) and trash the i3 even thought it is basically the same technology with a smaller car, battery and motor…

    Kind of interesting to see…

    I personally drool over the Model S, but I really like the i3 as well. Like Jack, I found the model S to have a few draw backs. One is the price. One is that it is hard to get in and out of. I am 6′-4″ tall and had a hard time seeing traffic lights due to the low windshield line and seating position. I had to bend down a little and look up at an angle to see them. I also hit my head on the roof in the back seats. It was not much worse than my corvette on these issues, but it was annoying. Since this was gong to be the wife’s car it did not bother me too much. My wife does have a bad back and she did say that she did not like getting in and out of the Tesla, but could live with it….

    However the wife is bouncing around all over the map from me building her a car to buying the Model S. She loved the Ford fusion energi, and I thought she would cry when she opened the virtually non-existent trunk. If you have not seen it, the battery fills up almost all of the trunk. I am going to let her spin for a while longer, but I think the BMW i3 would be perfect for her….

    Personally it would still rather build her a 65-69 electric pony car with a AC-35 x 2….

    On that note. Did any one else notice that the motor in the i3 has nearly identical specs as the AC-35 x2 ???

  6. Robert Turner

    Hello. I didn’t notice, or rather couldn’t see if , and if so where these aluminium cased cells were vented? I think I remember you saying in an older video , that the CALB’s could be laid on their thin edge but it was not recommended to lay them flat down? I think there is an advantage of shorter cells, because they can go below the seats and release all that space fore and aft, so it can be used as the “Model S” does, for the utility of the vehicle. Have you studied the venting of these cells during different states? I think if these could be laid flat, you could fabricate a lovely shallow pack, like the Tesla and keep the C of G very low. Rob

      1. Andy, All of my LiFePO4 cells have a vent, safety vent, to be more exact. Even the round Hedway’s have a safety vent and so do the cylindrical A123 cells. I don’t think Robert was meaning a vent like an always open one.

        1. I kept it short. You know it’s not a vent per se.
          The safety valve is either a self breaking design for a pouch, or a designated weak spot if its hard cased.
          I saw jacks video. The filler is between the terminals.
          From what I know of all these types of cells, they all hang from their terminals – even hanging from the inside of the case. Pouch cells are best not compressed, so I’ve done the same here too.

  7. I’m curious to see how the new cells hold (voltage) up under a 15C draw rate. The temperature rise under a 3C charge rate wasn’t overly encouraging but much of that could be due to the smaller package and better thermal conductivity of the package. Not to mention charge is not the same as discharge.

    Regarding you smoker ad, you might want to work on the the German pronunciation as it’s way off. Learn to roll that “R” around and soften that sharp “CH” sound. Google translate will provide you with the correct pronunciation. (http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#en/de/smoker)

  8. I love the direction of the voltage going up in the cells and the max C rating, but the “value” of the cells involves the cycle life too. Is there a tool for testing cycle life? I did a quick calc and charging/discharging at 3C would mean 1 month per 1000 cycles operating 24×7! Quite a time commitment.

    And this brings up another question – How long do we need the batteries to last? Longer than the car? Cars half life? And … how long does a car last?

    I’m sure a certain population moves to new vehicles for style or features. But another population, I think the larger %, drive their cars until the “wheels fall off”. So should a battery pack last until the wheels fall off? And what will fail 1st in an EV? Disregarding the deteriorating interior, and battery pack, what fails first? The controller? The motor has moving parts, but really only the bearings and RPM sensor (on ACIM).

    One thing I’ve learned, if the problem is mechanical, thermal or electrical, it can probably be fixed. If it’s gone out of style – no hope!

  9. Jack, it was very interesting to see your test of a NMC type cell. I have been using the Corvus Energy packs for a few months now and they are NMC cells. The cells themselves are made by Dow Kokam and packaged and bms’d up by Corvus. I cannot go into all the details of the application I’m using them in here, but it’s a large scale application. You will undoubtedly be doing more tests, so I thought I’d make some suggestions to which ones might be interesting. For instance, you immediately found that the voltage curve is not flat (I hate this) and that the temperature rises more than the CA cells ( I hate this even more). I have observed the same thing. Try this, start the battery at 110F (a hot southern day), discharge it to 80-90%DOD, then charge it back up. Do this at 1C then at 3C all the while trending the temperature. You have already found that the temperature rises through the entire charge cycle, not just the last 10% like the CA cells do. I’ve been told that 50C is the highest recommended charge temp, discharge temp is a bit higher….

    Think of a hybrid application that operates the battery between 30-80% SOC, A CA cell would have very little thermal rise because the SOC never gets to the area that it generates much heat. The NMC cell though, generates lots of heat and would require cooling to prevent the temperature from getting out of hand.
    From what I am seeing thus far, the NMC technology might be a good choice for an EV as long as the EV was discharged, allowed to cool, charged, then allowed to cool again. Fast charging would not even be an option without serious liquid cooling.

    Brian

  10. The shop cam on Sunday afternoon: All kinds of activity and attention being paid to he old pickup truck on one side of the shop, meanwhile the $100,000 car parked 30 feet away sits there without anyone giving it a second thought.

    1. Hello Andyj

      i see your point…

      The batteries look good and especially weight compared to AH.
      I just think that AH drops significantly, relative to the number of charge cycles.

      questions
      When you convert a car or motorcycle into electricity, would it have to go through the MOT. I think you call it in the GB

      Allan

      1. It certainly would appear they exhibit a linear loss in capacity when used to 80%dod every time. From their chart it looks like 1,000 cycles would be optimistic to retain 80% capacity. Of note, it appears they do have significant difficulty delivering power.

        I am particularly curious what their chart looks like at 15% dod per cycle. If you had a 40 mile daily average use with 400 miles of capacity, would you increase your cell life 8-fold?

      2. Hello Allan,
        I’d call them 300W/Kg @ 200 cycles. Which is still over double that of a Leaf!
        I’ve turned the site inside out for provenance. “Envia generates revenue by selling cathode material to cell vendors”. Claim to have a company ready in China to make the cells for $125/KWH. All the top men – bar one are of South India/Asia appearance.
        .
        A yearly MOT, (Ministry of Transport) certificate, to prove the vehicle is safe and complies with law for use, yes.
        Also for registration it needs a “Super MOT”. They will inspect for full road compliance, receipts mainly to prove nothing is stolen, check welding, safety, so nobody will get hurt from sharp edges etc.
        A conversion can avoid all this if its only drive components. A fully “home made” vehicle will almost certainly end up with a “Q” plate. This will need a specialist insurer who does kit car builds etc.

        1. Hi Andyj

          I do not know so much for the Nissan Leaf, but I think it’s a nice car, and especially compared to my Renault Clio 1997, It looks like a lunch box that is pinched at one end.

          if you want to be able to get other cells, do you have a plan to implant the new cells. Is the wiring diargram available?

          125 $ each. KWh is not a bad trade, how long they last only a test reveal. However, I would like to see the discharge curve at C3

          I would like to convert a new car or one that did not run very far a BMW 316 I. The problem in Denmark is that you must have an EMC test on the car and it is not cheap and there is no guarantee that you get car through the MOT.

          The price of an EMC test is approximately £ 12,500 the price I have from a friend who is at Siemens Wind Power who was inregistret 3 porsche which was built by ruf in Germany.

          However, we have the rule that if a car has been inrigistreret in an EU country for 3 month and must have run at least 3000 KM, the Danish MOT registers the car without any comment.

          So now you know why I’m asking

          Allan

          1. I’m no expert or importer and my taste for cars is lacking.
            But from what you say.. £12,500 for EMC testing!!!! You can hire a wideband scanner that gives a readout in seconds for a few quid! Are you sure this is for every newly registered car or just type approval for a prototype? It galls me how Gov’ts kill freedoms and innovation.
            Maybe a Latvian registration? It’s closer to you, pre-EU state, very EV friendly by the Gov’t. (Chademo everywhere!) An ex-Russian state so maybe free ‘n easy and possibly cheap, not to forget the UK drives on your wrong side of the road so type approval could not happen.

    2. HI Andyj
      I am quite sure, if my friend at Siemens is telling the truth.
      If I convert a car to electric it will be considered produtype and EMC test must be performed by a satificeret company.
      Yes … It stops all inovation. We have previously also had lax rules, just as you mention in your previous post.
      I will contact my friend and hear about I might have misunderstood something, but electric car website for dk also writes that it needs an EMC test and it is almost hopeless to get a modern car through the MOT and it is very expensive.
      I think the MOT to be carried out in Sweden, but is not sure yet. I am looking high and low for the place that is easiest.
      Allan

  11. Hi Jack,

    Congrats on your new Tesla!

    I have felt this buffeting effect that you were talking about in a number of cars. The worst was a 2002 Honda CR-V that we had. You’d think that your head was going to explode if you rolled the rear windows down and kept the front ones up. I know what you mean jelly bean.

    I hope you guys aren’t getting flooded out at EVCCON. I keep an eye on Accuweather.com as your weather affects us up here in Nova Scotia so I like to see what’s coming up from down south and I can see by their website that your state is getting a good soaking. Water and electrons at high potential aren’t the best mix and I hope everybody down their stays safe and has a great convention!

    Cheers,

    John Egan

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